Chaos Enmities (maglag and MGuy stay out)

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:51 pm

looks like a generic eldar pointy rune thing to me. Last thing I checked... which is forever ago and was very cursory, the eldar gods were a seperate thing.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:20 pm

Ancient History wrote:Nurgle is actually the embodiment of hope, if I remember correctly. I have a copy of the Liber Chaotica around here somewhere.

No, that would be Tzeentch.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:25 pm

Khaine is very very obviously meant to be the Eldar understanding of the bit of Khorne that they worship. Likewise with Cegorach and Tzeentch. The link's more tenuous with Isha and Nurgle; per canon Eldar mythology Nurgle "saved" Isha from Slaanesh in order to test diseases on her as a twisted show of affection, but there isn't a practically identical doctrine or role to go on since Isha isn't the Eldar god of disease.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:08 pm

Chamomile wrote:So I'm trying to figure out fundamental philosophical incompatibilities that drive each of these four pairs to fight one another, and while they don't have to be the kinds of philosophical differences that would drive non-crazy people to violence, "there's not enough hours in the day" is insufficient. It's not enough that every hour you spend hacking people up is an hour not spent snorting cocaine, Slaanesh needs to somehow resent you for hacking up people (or doing something else Khorne deeply approves of and requires of his followers) altogether. [...] Khorne is the god of honor, courage, and violence. He likes it when you solve your problems in a straightforward and honest way (but he doesn't particularly care about justice, so if your problem is "I don't rule the world" and your solution is "personally murder people until they make me king of the world," Khorne is totally okay with that).

Chamomile wrote:I like this depiction of Craftworld Eldar vs. Dark Eldar, but it's still ultimately an hours in the day argument. If you're a bodybuilder who also has cocaine orgies, that does mean you are spending less time bodybuilding or having cocaine orgies than if you only did one or the other, but Khorne doesn't specifically dislike cocaine orgies nor does Slaanesh specifically dislike bodybuilding. In fact, if bodybuilding (and then maiming people) is your passion, Slaanesh is all in favor of you being obsessively dedicated to it.

I'm seeing one problem here. Khorne don't like bodybuilding. Khorne don't like training. Killing is what will make you better at killing more. Khorne champions don't train: they fight each other to death in arenas or during full-blown internal wars and that's good enough to be prepared for the next war.

Using violence, or war, to define Khorne is problematic because the setting requires all Chaos gods to be able to field fighters. And all those fighters are able to win a war at the end of the day, so your "not enough hours in the day" criteria is always going to fail on Khorne.

You ought to also define Khorne as a god of destruction. He's not trying to corrupt its enemy, to alter or make the opposition destroy itself from inside like Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh may do. The simple acknowledgement that one another could contribute with an interesting effect, a sensation or more fecal matter and allow that is too much for Khorne. The whole "kill kill kill" and harvest metaphor is more than just self-styling. Khorne is basically a lawnmower to the world. If you're not actively involved in the process of destruction, you are to be destroyed.

shlominus · Post by **shlominus** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:50 pm

Longes wrote:
Ancient History wrote:Nurgle is actually the embodiment of hope, if I remember correctly. I have a copy of the Liber Chaotica around here somewhere.
No, that would be Tzeentch.

indeed!

"nurgle and tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. while the energy of tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness."

p.12 the lost and the damned

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:55 pm

Pixels wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:Hell, the khornate space elves regularly summon a greater daemon of khorne to help in their very honourable battles against their foes . .
Which itself is but a shard of the Elvish Khornate Aspect of War, left over after one of their other chaos gods broke him into thousands of little pieces. So maybe Khorne stopped caring about Honour then and ther, having his more honourable part destroyed like that.
I think you're confusing Khaine and Khorne. Khaine got shattered when Slaanesh was working on its Eldar god kill streak, but Khorne existed before that and continued after with no change. I don't think they were the same entity.

They're names are practically the same. There are just too letters difference.

The Law of Conservation of Similar Names says that they have to be the same person.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:03 am

Nath wrote: You ought to also define Khorne as a god of destruction. He's not trying to corrupt its enemy, to alter or make the opposition destroy itself from inside like Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh may do. The simple acknowledgement that one another could contribute with an interesting effect, a sensation or more fecal matter and allow that is too much for Khorne. The whole "kill kill kill" and harvest metaphor is more than just self-styling. Khorne is basically a lawnmower to the world.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:08 am

Nath wrote: Using violence, or war, to define Khorne is problematic because the setting requires all Chaos gods to be able to field fighters.

Except it's not actually all that hard to define the difference between a faction which uses violence as a means and a faction that has violence as their end goal, and the enmity between Khorne and Tzeentch doesn't require an hours in the day argument regardless of whether or not destruction is added to Khorne's portfolio or not, nor does that particular interpretation of Khorne work for what I'm going for.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:38 am

Khorne's war portfolio is problematic because in the grim future of hello kitty there is only war. All the gods are war gods, none more or less than any other. Puts profound limits on the pantheon.

I mean, you can split hairs. You can split hairs with anythibg. You could say that Khorne is all about not taking prisoners, Tzeentch is about interrogating prisoners, Slaanesh is about torturing prisoners, and Nurgle is about leaving injured people broken on the battlefield. But while that makes the different chaos armies behave differently, there still isn't a reason for anyone to join in the first place.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:27 am

FrankTrollman wrote:there still isn't a reason for anyone to join in the first place.

In the grim future of hello kitty the god of humanity is distant and dead, so while the chaos gods are fickle and petty, there is at least a chance that praying to Tzeentch will get you sweet magic powers. Praying to god emperor does sweet fuck all.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:54 am

Khorne's big pitch is the Afterlife. If you serve Khorne loyally in life and are a badass enough, you are transformed into an even more badass demon berserker when you die and get to live forever in the Warp fighting and killing. Tzeentch's magic is cheating. Nurgle is a god damn hippie. But Slaanesh is making people waste their lives on decadence and that's just unacceptable.

Tzeentch's big pitch is Elitism. If you join the conspiracy you become part of the elect with command over lesser conspirators and real psychic powers. The better you serve the more powers you get and the more minions you can boss around. Khorne makes you wait until you're dead. Slaanesh can't give you real power. But Nurgle wants to give away everything that makes you special to the undeserving masses.

Nurgle's big pitch is Acceptance. Everyone is equal in the eyes of Papa Nurgle and everyone shares everything - especially the blessings. Joining means that you are released from suffering and surrounded with people who love you and care about you. Khorne is a violent thug. Slaanesh is creepy and weird. But Tzeentch is trying to hog all the good stuff and won't share. How rude.

Slaanesh's big pitch is Individuality. You get to do what you want when you want how you want. Slaanesh has your back and will stop anyone who tries to tell you no. Joining the cult means instant gratification, just sign on the bottom line of cocaine. Tzeentch needs to relax and get laid. Nurgle wouldn't know passion if it bit him. But Khrone is making people waste their lives chasing a far off happy ending that they could be having here and now.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:03 pm

Grek, your idea is shit. Chamomile already quite eloquently shot down the whole 'not enough hours' concept and you just triple downed on it. If you find yourself using any variant of the phrase 'waste their time' you should just not post and start over.

You need to find agendas the other factions want to not be advanced, not merely agendas that other factions don't want advanced.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:31 pm

Longes wrote:Praying to god emperor does sweet fuck all.

I will raise you the Adamantium Will special rule, a 6++, and a 1/game special ability which can include shit like Rending and Twin-Linked.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:09 pm

Fuck you, Frank. None of that was a 'not enough hours' concept.

Khorne demands that you to fight and train and kill your for whole life in exchange for a happy afterlife as an immortal killing machine who does more of the same. He demands discipline, commitment, zeal and toil. No pain, no gain, and if you give up, you get nothing. Khornites think that living a life full of suffering and violence makes you hardcore and proves you worthy of your eventual and eternal reward. They think that the Slaaneshites are quitters and slackers who need to be shown that life isn't all cake and blowjobs. Preferably via beheading.

Slaanesh lets you to have a wild party and snort cocaine. This doesn't lead to any kind of reward from Slaanesh and isn't part of a greater plan: It's the end result and the ultimate goal. Slaaneshites think that praying to the generous god of fast cars and unlimited chocolate frosting is both awesome and the obvious thing to do, and that accepting Khorne's offer of pain now for gains later is obviously stupid. To the Slaaneshite, Khornites are party-poopers who don't know how to have a good time and are morally outraged by the idea of anyone else having fun.

shlominus · Post by **shlominus** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:53 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: You need to find agendas the other factions want to not be advanced, not merely agendas that other factions don't want advanced.

-Username17

no, you don't.

the chaos gods are focused. their individual "agendas" are focused. they care very little about anything that is not directly opposed to their values.

killing and death vs. enjoying yourself to excess (some overlap)
accepting fate vs. actively trying to change it (no overlap)

khorne loves war cause war is the principal provider of killing, obviously. why would tzeentch oppose war just cause it's mainly khorne's shtick? war usually promotes change, so tzeentch can obviously enjoy war. war usually results in suffering, hardship and desease, so nurgle has no problem with war. slaanesh might not be particularly interested in war (fighting is just one of an unlimited number of things you could do to enjoy yourself), but killing can be fun, so slaanesh might be in as well, for a while.

as long as an action doesn't actively oppose their core values the chaos gods are fine with anything, they only care about their chosen focus.

the reason why the chaos gods don't get along is not that they dislike what the others are doing (unless it's their exact opposite). they are rivals becasue they are competing for all those juicy souls and for power. all of them want everything. that's all the reason there is and all the reason you need.

that's why i fear chamomile will fail in trying to set up static and believable opposing agendas for all gods. this is just not how the warhammer chaos gods work. you can try to work out specific issues and pit them against each other, but in the end these will always be fringe issues, as at the core the ideals of the chaos gods are very simple.

"straightforward, brutal and honest" as a tzeentch follower? why not, for a time? tzeentch has no problem with being straightforward, brutal or honest, if that advances change.

"change can also be violent and sudden, and the lord of change is not above waging war to further it's aims."

p. 32 the lost and the damned

khorne might prefer the straigthforward, brutal and honest general of an army, but the hidden, deceitful cabal of serial killers is also within his portfolio. staying hidden means more death, so staying hidden is acceptable.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:10 pm

shlominus wrote: the reason why the chaos gods don't get along is not that they dislike what the others are doing (unless it's their exact opposite). they are rivals becasue they are competing for all those juicy souls and for power. all of them want everything. that's all the reason there is and all the reason you need.

Quite true. There's even an official board game based on that.

Grek wrote: Khorne demands that you to fight and train and kill your for whole life in exchange for a happy afterlife as an immortal killing machine who does more of the same. He demands discipline, commitment, zeal and toil. No pain, no gain, and if you give up, you get nothing. Khornites think that living a life full of suffering and violence makes you hardcore and proves you worthy of your eventual and eternal reward. They think that the Slaaneshites are quitters and slackers who need to be shown that life isn't all cake and blowjobs. Preferably via beheading.

Discipline and Zeal are for suckers since Khorne is all for team killing. And there's the specific case of a loyalist guard posted at a boring positon for decades turned slave who tries to run away and fails and is made to polish armors for weeks until she gets her hands in a daemon sword and uses it to kill the armor's owner when he's naked, dons it herself and becomes a Chaos Lady. Because Khorne doesn't give a single fuck where the blood comes from as long as it is being spilled.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:07 pm

shlominus wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: You need to find agendas the other factions want to not be advanced, not merely agendas that other factions don't want advanced.

-Username17
no, you don't.

Okay, let me explain to you how 40k canon works. 40k canon does not exist. It is explicitly the case that there are no possible wrong answers to what is really going on in 40k, and that there aren't really any retcons, only new perspectives and interpretations. There are quotes from actual 40k novelists talking about how this was hard to wrap their heads around when GW first told them this, because it isn't some fans' way of reconciling disparate fluff, it's the actual, official stance of Games Workshop. There is no canon. When you walk into a thread whose entire premise is to work out the kinks of my personal interpretation of 40k and try to claim that this interpretation is wrong, you cannot possibly be correct, because there is no such thing as a wrong interpretation of 40k. It doesn't matter how many quotes are backing you up, and it doesn't even matter if precisely zero quotes are backing me up (though if I wanted to find quotes, I could, it's just that mine mostly come from novels and not sourcebooks and are much harder to find, since they're organized by order of events and not by subject and thus a two-sentence aside about the nature of Chaos could be practically anywhere), because the actual stance of 40k fluff writers is that anything that any fan makes up is just as valid as officially published material, which is self-contradictory anyway.

The premise of this thread is that each Chaos God represents a small portfolio that is reasonable in moderation but has some inherent opposition to the other Chaos Gods, that they disdain other Chaos Gods' followers not just because they're doing Khorne things when they could be doing Tzeentch things but because Tzeentch would rather nothing at all happen rather than Khorne things happen. That these Chaos Gods would be totally reasonable to pray to, except that they're fueled by the emotions of the galactic population and the galaxy is a twisted Hellscape of misery and madness, so the Chaos Gods have gone completely bonkers.

Khorne runs an honor society where everyone down to babies are considered fair game for glorious, honorable melee combat to resolve differences ("The baby is crying. I do not wish to hear the baby cry. We shall resolve this honorably." SMASH "Another glorious victory for Khorne!") and where everyone who can't put up enough of a fight to impress the toughest guys around are allowed to survive only because and for as long as they are useful as slave labor to them. Honor societies are kind of balls to begin with (there's a reason we did away with them), but they have an appeal and you can understand why someone would want them in general, but Khorne has taken the principles of an honor society to an insane extreme and thus become a grimdark supervillain.

That is the premise of the thread. If you don't want to accept that premise, fuck off. I'll add your name to the title if I absolutely have to.

shlominus · Post by **shlominus** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:12 pm

premise accepted. my bad.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:17 pm

Why do they need a precise stance on anything? Just say that they vaguely like some stuff but also support fucking people's shit up both within and without. Except for Nurgle who probably doesn't care about actual conflict. I've been binge watching a bunch of Lore videos of Warhammer lately and it s seems like you could just get by with saying that due to being sentient Warp stuff their profiles are vague and so though someone like Khorne is totez honorabulz kombat he is more attracted to extremes. So unless you are somehow extremely honorabulz you just don't catch his eye like a bloodcrazed berserker who not only is strong but makes others strong and spreads bloodletting (which he's also into) in a way that being a relatively peaceful but honorable person just doesn't. So servicing chaos is always an exercise in making a big blip for yourself on the chaos map and people trend toward doing things they believe any given deity likes.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:24 pm

MGuy wrote:Why do they need a precise stance on anything?

Frank's been over this already. The warp entities themselves don't need to have a precise stance on anything, but in addition to being a Chaos God Khorne is also a faction with specific armies who want to stomp over other armies in order to achieve something. Even if the Khorne faction is ultimately just appending a coherent (though crazy and extremist) philosophy to a warp entity that doesn't actually think coherent thoughts at all and instead just glomps onto people who are angry and violent, that faction still needs its philosophy otherwise what are they fighting for? It's fine if a 40k faction's end goal is crazy or absurd (it's also fine if, like the orks, a 40k faction's end goal is more or less preservation of the status quo), but in order for there to be stakes they do need to have an end goal at all. There needs to be a vision of the galaxy that they are trying to realize and that vision needs to be a recruiting pitch you could explain to a human, even if any sane human would be revolted by it.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:31 pm

Again why? Why do the servants of Chaos entities need a goal beyond the base stuff like gaining power and being able to do what they like? This is a fanatical place where fanatical religions give people power. Tangible power that you can use to your own ends that apparently makes you feel good. Why would individuals in a mad mad mad universe like that if 40k need more than that? The powers of Chaos are even known to corrupt people so beyond just wanting the power and to kill people (or being engineered that way) the gods are able to perpetuate their ways through something like indoctrination.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:34 pm

Chamomile wrote:Some time ago, the Den helped me figure out why Nurgle and Slaanesh would hate each other on a fundamental philosophical level. During the discussion it came up that having the Chaos gods all be opposed to one another with constantly changing alliances would be better than two pairs of static nemeses. I agreed, but I didn't think it was worth the trouble to try and come up with four additional philosophical points of opposition to cover Nurgle/Tzeentch, Nurgle/Khorne, Khorne/Slaanesh, and Tzeentch/Slaanesh. Today I decided hey, why not give it a go.

So I'm trying to figure out fundamental philosophical incompatibilities that drive each of these four pairs to fight one another, and while they don't have to be the kinds of philosophical differences that would drive non-crazy people to violence, "there's not enough hours in the day" is insufficient. It's not enough that every hour you spend hacking people up is an hour not spent snorting cocaine, Slaanesh needs to somehow resent you for hacking up people (or doing something else Khorne deeply approves of and requires of his followers) altogether.

Let's take Khorne/Tzeentch as an example, since that enmity I've already worked out. Khorne is the god of honor, courage, and violence. He likes it when you solve your problems in a straightforward and honest way (but he doesn't particularly care about justice, so if your problem is "I don't rule the world" and your solution is "personally murder people until they make me king of the world," Khorne is totally okay with that). Tzeentch is the god of brilliance, ambition, and deception. He likes it when you solve your problems in a cunning and roundabout way. When you solve a problem by murdering it in the face, Tzeentch doesn't just like you less because you could've been manipulative, he likes you less because what you did is the antithesis of how he does things. It's not just that he'd rather you were doing something else, he specifically resents the approach you took.

You can do something like pull off a long and convoluted Xanatos Roulette that ends with you beating half an army to death with your bare hands and Tzeentch would normally despise you for that climax but he has to respect that everything went according to keikaku for seven years in order to reach that point, and Khorne would be pissed at you for saying something different out of either end of your mouth for nearly a decade but you beat a hive tyrant to death with another hive tyrant and he needs to give you props for that.

As a refresher, the conclusion I reached from the last thread as to the Nurgle/Slaanesh enmity was that Nurgle represents apathy, zen contentment, and acceptance. He loves every life form down to the most virulent of bacteria and he wants everyone else to share that love, but is not especially bothered if they reject him. Slaanesh represents passion, a will to feel more extreme highs and reach greater heights of excellence. They don't want to spend their life learning to be content with literally toxic communities, they want to be surrounded by only the best and to be constantly pushing the boundaries of what the best is.

So, Khorne/Tzeentch: Straightforward, brutal, and violent honesty vs. cunning, labyrinthine deception

Nurgle/Slaanesh: Acceptance of and contentment with anything no matter how awful it seems at first glance vs. acceptance of nothing except the very best and constantly pushing the boundary of what the best is.

Nurgle/Tzeentch: ???

Nurgle/Khorne: ???

Khorne/Slaanesh: ???

Tzeentch/Slaanesh: ???

I'm wondering if there might be a solution where Nurgle and Slaanesh both have something in common that they have opposed to both Tzeentch and Khorne. Nurgle and Slaanesh's philosophies are both about how you live your life day-to-day and who you surround yourself with, whereas Tzeentch and Khorne's are primarily concerned with how you solve your problems. I don't really see a conflict there. In fact, I see rather unfortunately something of the opposite. A Slaaneshi cultist can pair off with either Khorne or Tzeentch and both are pretty compatible with how Slaanesh does things because Slaanesh is about the end goal - more - whereas Khorne and Tzeentch are about reaching it. So how can Slaanesh hate Khorne and Tzeentch when they have little overlap?

Nurgle/Tzeentch: Acceptance and apathy vs striving and change.

Khorne/Slaanesh: Pursuit of your enemy's suffering vs persuit of your own pleasure.

Tzeentch/Slaanesh: Striving for perfection/delayed gratification vs wallowing in decadence/impulsive instant gratification.

Tzeentch is antithetical to both Nurgle and Slaanesh because he's the god of Hope. At his core is the idea that things can get better, and that you can make them better. He whispered Communism into Marx's ear, and Republicanism into Robespierre's. He's the guy who told the Continental Congress that they could make a Constitution that was much more awesome than the Articles of Confederation. He's like, things can be better, you just have to try.

Nurgle is about acceptance of the way things are, apathy, resignation. He's about the idea that things won't get better, no matter how hard you try, so you might as well just not try at all.

Slaanesh is more like the world sucks, and you can't make it better, but you can at least snort cocaine and fuck hookers until you forget how much you hate yourself. Don't try to change things, cover your problems up with pointless pleasure-seeking.

Khorne and Slaanesh are superficially very similar, but Slaanesh is very inward-seeking, while Khorne is outward seeking. The Khornite does violence to his enemies. And everything he does to himself is in pursuit of better crushing his enemies.
The Slaaneshi does violence to himself. Anything is does to his enemy is in pursuit of drowning himself in meaningless pleasure.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:49 pm

MGuy wrote:Again why?

Because if the Chaos Gods don't represent distinct factions, they do not represent distinct factions. Yes, you can make all conflicts with them interminably dull by making them effectively identical warlords in different coats of paint and thus make the whole notion of Chaos Undivided completely pointless because there were no divisions to unite in the first place, but why would you want that? Decreasing the amount of significant differences between the different Chaos Gods makes it less sensible to even have different Chaos Gods.

Khorne and Slaanesh are superficially very similar, but Slaanesh is very inward-seeking, while Khorne is outward seeking. The Khornite does violence to his enemies. And everything he does to himself is in pursuit of better crushing his enemies.
The Slaaneshi does violence to himself. Anything is does to his enemy is in pursuit of drowning himself in meaningless pleasure.

Okay, sure, that's a difference between the two, but how does that lead to enmity? Why does Khorne disdain Slaaneshi practices, and vice-versa, rather than being indifferent to them?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:30 pm

We as humans despite being pretty damn samey manage too faction our assess off pretty damn well. That aside what part of what I said actually makes it so the sides can't be distinct from each other in a way that matters for the game? Where did I mention taking away their most identifiable traits? You straight up point out where I drew the line without crying about lack of distinction.

As for why Khorne hates Slaneesh practices, I would actually say it doesn't really matter. I could extend this to all of them but it is especially true for Khorne and Nurgle. Khorne rewarded a guy who fucked up his own people for not wanting to freeze to death to fight people. You don't need to give people like that a reason to hate anyone else for any particular reason. At least that's my position. I don't care whether or not there's enmity between the chaos gods.

My only point is that I don't believe that you need a precise end game or grand plan to make these deities work. Just some shit they want followers to do to earn favor ( or at least their attention or the attention of their stronger demons) and just go with that.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:54 pm

Chamomile wrote:
MGuy wrote:Why do they need a precise stance on anything?
Frank's been over this already. The warp entities themselves don't need to have a precise stance on anything, but in addition to being a Chaos God Khorne is also a faction with specific armies who want to stomp over other armies in order to achieve something. Even if the Khorne faction is ultimately just appending a coherent (though crazy and extremist) philosophy to a warp entity that doesn't actually think coherent thoughts at all and instead just glomps onto people who are angry and violent, that faction still needs its philosophy otherwise what are they fighting for? It's fine if a 40k faction's end goal is crazy or absurd (it's also fine if, like the orks, a 40k faction's end goal is more or less preservation of the status quo), but in order for there to be stakes they do need to have an end goal at all. There needs to be a vision of the galaxy that they are trying to realize and that vision needs to be a recruiting pitch you could explain to a human, even if any sane human would be revolted by it.

Serve the chaos gods and you will get awesome super powers and eventually ascend to an immortal godlike daemon prince. Or become a tortured spawn. But they usually do not tell you that bit upfront.

Humans will do all crazy shit for power.

The different chaos factions are about what kind of super power you would like to earn first.

The Gaming Den

Chaos Enmities (maglag and MGuy stay out)

Re: Chaos Enmities